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Rolf771
Anmeldedatum: 14.05.2019
Beiträge: 325
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 Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 18:34 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Rick Lusitano hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Claus Lehmann hat Folgendes geschrieben: | Thesen und Spekulationen der Nutzer im Forum Thread
T3) Die Anbahner bieten die Kredite mit Abschlag an, da sie dringend auf Liquidität angewiesen sind
Analyse / Einschätzung zu den Thesen
zu T3) dem widerspricht Mintos* (s.o.). Allerdings wäre es relativ einfach zu umgehen, in dem der Anbahner ein Anlegerportfolio erstellen lässt, dass in die Kredite am Primärmarkt investiert und direkt wieder am Sekundärmarkt weiterverkauft. Dabei stellt sich dann aber die Frage wieso Kredite sovieler unterschiedlicher Anbahner einbezogen sind.
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This new approach of creating a fake investor account to increase liquidity for the LO is economically strange.
For example, LO X creates a fake investor account, it needs money to buy the loans in PM, that is the need of the LO in the first place, money.
OK, let continue the original theory, the LO sends 1 million EUR to the fake investor account, then it buys 1M EUR in loans on PM, then goes to the SM and sell all with -1,0% discount. Result, the investor looses 10k, only gets 990k. If it is the LO, the LO was needing money in the beginning and ends losing money, -1% in all loans. Start with 1 problem and ends with worse, and bigger problem.
Could be a third-party offering this service for a Fee collected from the some LO. For example, someone talks with the most active LO and asks a 1,5% fee to buy 5 million EUR of their loans on the PM. Then it sells the loans in the SM, to have liquidity to buy more loans on the PM, continues collect fees from the LO.
 Does Mintos* earn a Fee for each loan sold at PM, paid by the LO? (It isn't the way Mintos* and other P2P platforms earns money, taking a fee in each loans offered in the PM?) 
If it's Mintos* to collect fees from the LO, the Invest & Access was an another process, that Mintos* created for that purpose, to buy more loans on the PM and collect more fees from LO. To hide the process from the LO.
What we know:
- We can conclude that the person behind, continues buying and selling everyday.
- The loan turnover is important.
- The person continues buying and selling with discount, because it earns money, No one have all this work, to loose money.
- It isn't someone by mistake or to get the cashback (it ended yesterday) or the 1% Refer a Friend Campaign.
Do this action on SM occurs in other currencies, because some these LO have also loans in other currencies?
No
PLN (Kuki) 46 loans with -0.1% most Grace Period and some lates
DKK (Simbo) 11 loans with -0.1% all Current except 1 late
RUB (Metrokredit) 0000 loans with discount |
Rick, we cannot know for sure. What we know is that Mintos* recognized "something strange" going on in the secondary market together with the affirmation that their risk desk is involved at least since yesterday. All this was presented to me by Anna from the Mintos* support in the following conversation:
"Thank you for getting back to me.
Since yesterday our Risk team have been monitoring the Secondary market, and we have been noticed something weird.
However, now all the necessary actions are maintaining and specified department is involved.
We really appreciate your contact and worry!
Regards,
Anna." |
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FuxX
Anmeldedatum: 04.11.2017
Beiträge: 119
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 18:39 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Bei mir ist keiner dieser Kredite Late. Sie werden alle bisher rechtzeitig zurückgezahlt. Wie sieht es bei euch aus? |
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Lichtensteiner
Anmeldedatum: 10.05.2019
Beiträge: 494
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 18:51 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| FuxX hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Bei mir ist keiner dieser Kredite Late. Sie werden alle bisher rechtzeitig zurückgezahlt. Wie sieht es bei euch aus? |
Kuki war natürlich gewaltig late mit fast 30% in >31Tagen. Jetzt sind es wieder 19%.
Ihr solltet vllt die These des dummen Investors begraben. |
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Rolf771
Anmeldedatum: 14.05.2019
Beiträge: 325
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 18:54 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Lichtensteiner hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | FuxX hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Bei mir ist keiner dieser Kredite Late. Sie werden alle bisher rechtzeitig zurückgezahlt. Wie sieht es bei euch aus? |
Kuki war natürlich gewaltig late mit fast 30% in >31Tagen. Jetzt sind es wieder 19%.
Ihr solltet vllt die These des dummen Investors begraben. |
Daran hab' ich wirklich nie geglaubt. |
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CLAM
Anmeldedatum: 13.08.2018
Beiträge: 736
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 19:04 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Es kommen auch keine Kredite mehr rein. Ggf. ist jetzt wieder Ruhe. |
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Rick Lusitano
Anmeldedatum: 19.03.2019
Beiträge: 105
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 19:32 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Claus Lehmann hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Rick Lusitano hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
This new approach of creating a fake investor account to increase liquidity for the LO is economically strange.
For example, LO X creates a fake investor account, it needs money to buy the loans in PM, that is the need of the LO in the first place, money.
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See https://www.p2p-kredite.com/diskussion/viewtopic,p,119005.html#119005
I also sent you PN |
Thanks, Claus
If Mintos* wants, it could access the 7992069 account, and see from where it bought originally the loans. If it bought from the Loan Originators (PM) or from other investors (SM).
There are too much different players evolved, different Financial Groups, Sun Finance being the Group with most loans, but also Varks, Metrokredit, and even Tengo and ExpressCredit, both of them have some of the equity investors in the loan originator and Mintos* overlaping or are related parties. Or the main driver be the Sun Finance (Kuki, Bino, Simbo) and the other LO/Groups be just a distraction tactic?
_________________
Asset Allocation - https://financialawarenessforall.wordpress.com/ |
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Rolf771
Anmeldedatum: 14.05.2019
Beiträge: 325
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 19:38 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Rick Lusitano hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Claus Lehmann hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Rick Lusitano hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
This new approach of creating a fake investor account to increase liquidity for the LO is economically strange.
For example, LO X creates a fake investor account, it needs money to buy the loans in PM, that is the need of the LO in the first place, money.
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See https://www.p2p-kredite.com/diskussion/viewtopic,p,119005.html#119005
I also sent you PN |
Thanks, Claus
If Mintos* wants, it could access the 7992069 account, and see from where it bought originally the loans. If it bought from the Loan Originators (PM) or from other investors (SM).
There are too much different players evolved, different Financial Groups, Sun Finance being the Group with most loans, but also Varks, Metrokredit, and even Tengo and ExpressCredit, both of them have some of the equity investors in the loan originator and Mintos* overlaping or are related parties. Or the main driver be the Sun Finance (Kuki, Bino, Simbo) and the other LO/Groups be just a distraction tactic? |
Rick, about the "distraction" tactics: We already thought of that, but disregarded it because of plausibility reasons. Interesting to know is this: Mintos* replied with the following statement to my inquiry:
I was asking Anna (support):
"Dear Anna,
what you’re saying doesn’t make sense at all. The loans (kuki, simbo, bino and so on) in the secondary market we’re talking about are very few days (sometimes 1 or 2) old. Why would an investor try to get rid of these very newly acquired loans with such a huge loss just to invest in Invest & Access?! To emphasize this and make myself clear yet again: What is currently happening in the secondary market is in absolute demand to be made plausible by Mintos. The whole community is going nuts because of this right now and people start asking questions, because everyone is getting seriously nervous."
The somewhat telling reply was:
"Thank you for getting back to me.
Since yesterday our Risk team have been monitoring the Secondary market, and we have been noticed something weird.
However, now all the necessary actions are maintaining and specified department is involved.
We really appreciate your contact and worry!" |
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Rick Lusitano
Anmeldedatum: 19.03.2019
Beiträge: 105
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 19:46 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Rolf771 hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Rick Lusitano hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Claus Lehmann hat Folgendes geschrieben: | Thesen und Spekulationen der Nutzer im Forum Thread
T3) Die Anbahner bieten die Kredite mit Abschlag an, da sie dringend auf Liquidität angewiesen sind
Analyse / Einschätzung zu den Thesen
zu T3) dem widerspricht Mintos* (s.o.). Allerdings wäre es relativ einfach zu umgehen, in dem der Anbahner ein Anlegerportfolio erstellen lässt, dass in die Kredite am Primärmarkt investiert und direkt wieder am Sekundärmarkt weiterverkauft. Dabei stellt sich dann aber die Frage wieso Kredite sovieler unterschiedlicher Anbahner einbezogen sind.
|
This new approach of creating a fake investor account to increase liquidity for the LO is economically strange.
For example, LO X creates a fake investor account, it needs money to buy the loans in PM, that is the need of the LO in the first place, money.
OK, let continue the original theory, the LO sends 1 million EUR to the fake investor account, then it buys 1M EUR in loans on PM, then goes to the SM and sell all with -1,0% discount. Result, the investor looses 10k, only gets 990k. If it is the LO, the LO was needing money in the beginning and ends losing money, -1% in all loans. Start with 1 problem and ends with worse, and bigger problem.
Could be a third-party offering this service for a Fee collected from the some LO. For example, someone talks with the most active LO and asks a 1,5% fee to buy 5 million EUR of their loans on the PM. Then it sells the loans in the SM, to have liquidity to buy more loans on the PM, continues collect fees from the LO.
Does Mintos* earn a Fee for each loan sold at PM, paid by the LO? (It isn't the way Mintos* and other P2P platforms earns money, taking a fee in each loans offered in the PM?)
If it's Mintos* to collect fees from the LO, the Invest & Access was an another process, that Mintos* created for that purpose, to buy more loans on the PM and collect more fees from LO. To hide the process from the LO.
What we know:
- We can conclude that the person behind, continues buying and selling everyday.
- The loan turnover is important.
- The person continues buying and selling with discount, because it earns money, No one have all this work, to loose money.
- It isn't someone by mistake or to get the cashback (it ended yesterday) or the 1% Refer a Friend Campaign.
Do this action on SM occurs in other currencies, because some these LO have also loans in other currencies?
No
PLN (Kuki) 46 loans with -0.1% most Grace Period and some lates
DKK (Simbo) 11 loans with -0.1% all Current except 1 late
RUB (Metrokredit) 0000 loans with discount |
Rick, we cannot know for sure. What we know is that Mintos* recognized "something strange" going on in the secondary market together with the affirmation that their risk desk is involved at least since yesterday. All this was presented to me by Anna from the Mintos* support in the following conversation:
"Thank you for getting back to me.
Since yesterday our Risk team have been monitoring the Secondary market, and we have been noticed something weird.
However, now all the necessary actions are maintaining and specified department is involved.
We really appreciate your contact and worry!
Regards,
Anna." |
Hi Rolf
Mintos have all the tools to know who is 7992069 account. And can trace the operations it made.
Only yesterday, Mintos* started the compliance process. It didn't notice the Discount Tsunami from almost a 2 weeks???? I doubt that.
(The Discount Tsunami didn't started on 12.06, the Invest & Access launch day, it started a week before, ended it with a 0,7% or 0,9% discount, rising more during this week.)
Mintos already know that the SM was full of big discount loans, before yesterday, bigger that the 0.25% cashback on Shorters. Mintos* must have seen the reduction on the loans bought on PM. My 2nd cashback was only 10% of my 1st cashback, meaning that I bought 90% in SM (discount loans)
_________________
Asset Allocation - https://financialawarenessforall.wordpress.com/
Zuletzt bearbeitet von Rick Lusitano am 20.06.2019, 19:53, insgesamt einmal bearbeitet |
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Rolf771
Anmeldedatum: 14.05.2019
Beiträge: 325
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 19:53 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Rick Lusitano hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Rolf771 hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Rick Lusitano hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Claus Lehmann hat Folgendes geschrieben: | Thesen und Spekulationen der Nutzer im Forum Thread
T3) Die Anbahner bieten die Kredite mit Abschlag an, da sie dringend auf Liquidität angewiesen sind
Analyse / Einschätzung zu den Thesen
zu T3) dem widerspricht Mintos* (s.o.). Allerdings wäre es relativ einfach zu umgehen, in dem der Anbahner ein Anlegerportfolio erstellen lässt, dass in die Kredite am Primärmarkt investiert und direkt wieder am Sekundärmarkt weiterverkauft. Dabei stellt sich dann aber die Frage wieso Kredite sovieler unterschiedlicher Anbahner einbezogen sind.
|
This new approach of creating a fake investor account to increase liquidity for the LO is economically strange.
For example, LO X creates a fake investor account, it needs money to buy the loans in PM, that is the need of the LO in the first place, money.
OK, let continue the original theory, the LO sends 1 million EUR to the fake investor account, then it buys 1M EUR in loans on PM, then goes to the SM and sell all with -1,0% discount. Result, the investor looses 10k, only gets 990k. If it is the LO, the LO was needing money in the beginning and ends losing money, -1% in all loans. Start with 1 problem and ends with worse, and bigger problem.
Could be a third-party offering this service for a Fee collected from the some LO. For example, someone talks with the most active LO and asks a 1,5% fee to buy 5 million EUR of their loans on the PM. Then it sells the loans in the SM, to have liquidity to buy more loans on the PM, continues collect fees from the LO.
Does Mintos* earn a Fee for each loan sold at PM, paid by the LO? (It isn't the way Mintos* and other P2P platforms earns money, taking a fee in each loans offered in the PM?)
If it's Mintos* to collect fees from the LO, the Invest & Access was an another process, that Mintos* created for that purpose, to buy more loans on the PM and collect more fees from LO. To hide the process from the LO.
What we know:
- We can conclude that the person behind, continues buying and selling everyday.
- The loan turnover is important.
- The person continues buying and selling with discount, because it earns money, No one have all this work, to loose money.
- It isn't someone by mistake or to get the cashback (it ended yesterday) or the 1% Refer a Friend Campaign.
Do this action on SM occurs in other currencies, because some these LO have also loans in other currencies?
No
PLN (Kuki) 46 loans with -0.1% most Grace Period and some lates
DKK (Simbo) 11 loans with -0.1% all Current except 1 late
RUB (Metrokredit) 0000 loans with discount |
Rick, we cannot know for sure. What we know is that Mintos* recognized "something strange" going on in the secondary market together with the affirmation that their risk desk is involved at least since yesterday. All this was presented to me by Anna from the Mintos* support in the following conversation:
"Thank you for getting back to me.
Since yesterday our Risk team have been monitoring the Secondary market, and we have been noticed something weird.
However, now all the necessary actions are maintaining and specified department is involved.
We really appreciate your contact and worry!
Regards,
Anna." |
Hi Rolf
Mintos have all the tools to know who is 7992069 account. And can trace the operations it made.
Only yesterday, Mintos* started the compliance process. It didn't notice the Discount Tsunami from almost a 2 weeks (it didn't started only on 12.06, the Invest & Access launch day, it start in the week before, with 0,7% or 0,9% discount)???? I doubt that.
Mintos already know that the SM was full of big discount loans, before yesterday, bigger that the 0.25% cashback on Shorters. Mintos* must have seen the reduction on the loans bought on PM. My 2nd cashback was only 10% of my 1st cashback, meaning that I bought 90% in SM (discount loans) |
Rick, I feel you, none of the 'we're surprised and we're on it'-bullshit is convincing. If Mintos' treasury has their heads that deep down their asses to not realize this kind of extreme behavior in the secondary market then these guys must have been braindead all along. It is standard procedure to monitor conspicuous capital flows IN ANY CASE. Guess we're supposed to stay tuned for further 'discovery'. |
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Scottyffm
Anmeldedatum: 16.09.2018
Beiträge: 623
Wohnort: Fischkopp
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 20:11 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| one hour ago there was around 20k credits available. now there is only 6k left... (2nd market short term with 1% deduction) |
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Rick Lusitano
Anmeldedatum: 19.03.2019
Beiträge: 105
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 20:40 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Scottyffm hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | one hour ago there was around 20k credits available. now there is only 6k left... (2nd market short term with 1% deduction) |
There are 560 loans from GetBucks with -1,5% to -2.0% discount. 
(But they aren't new listed loans)
_________________
Asset Allocation - https://financialawarenessforall.wordpress.com/ |
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danginello
Anmeldedatum: 14.08.2013
Beiträge: 23
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 21:38 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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Mhm, vorbei wegen Ende der Cashback Aktion oder weil Mintos* eingegriffen hat?
Der Zeitraum würde ja halbwegs zur ersten Variante passen |
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TTom
Anmeldedatum: 09.10.2011
Beiträge: 1552
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 21:50 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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Ich habe noch eine weitere Hypothese zu den existierenden:
T7:
Der Account eines Großinvestors wurde gehackt. Der Angreifer ist an die Zugangsdaten gekommen. Um nun an das Geld zu kommen hat er willkürlich Kredite unter dem Account gekauft und mit Abschlag am Zweitmarkt angeboten.
Der oder die Angreifer kaufen dann im großen Stil mit eigenen Accounts die Kredite mit Discount auf. Das würde auch erklären, warum vorzugsweise verschiedene Short-Term-Originators betroffen sind -> die werden recht schnell wieder zurückgezahlt und das Kapital lässt sich schnell wieder liquidieren.
Gründe die dagegen sprechen würden:
1) Im Idealfall hätten die Angreifer dann nur so viel auf den Zweitmarkt gestellt, wie sie auch wieder mit eigenen Accounts aufkaufen könnten. Andererseits könnte das aber auch Taktik sein, um unter dem Radar zu bleiben.
2) Warum nur 1% Discount und nicht mehr? Auch hier evtl. Taktik um nicht zu sehr aufzufallen? Ziel: Kapital im Account langsam aber sicher aufzehren?
_________________
Aktive P2P-Investments:
Bondora, Mintos
Auslaufend/Historisch: Estateguru*, Reinvest24*, Bondster*, Investly*, Funding Circle*, Auxmoney*, Lendermarket |
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Claus Lehmann
Site Admin
Anmeldedatum: 31.08.2007
Beiträge: 18958
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| Verfasst am: 20.06.2019, 22:07 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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hatten wir schon. Dann könnten wie Du schreibst die Abschläge durchaus auch höher oder niedriger als 1% sein.
Und mit ein paar Mio. bleibst Du nicht unter dem Radar, wie dieser Thread hier auch zeigt
Und der großinvestor schaut eine Woche nicht in seinen Account??
_________________
Meine Investments (aktualisiert 12/25):
Laufend: Axiafunder*, Bondora*, Crowdcube, Estateguru*, Indemo*, Inrento*, Mintos*, Republic |
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CLAM
Anmeldedatum: 13.08.2018
Beiträge: 736
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| Verfasst am: 21.06.2019, 06:27 Titel: Re: Ursache für die Häufung der -1% Zweitmarkt Angebote? |
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| Also ich gehe davon aus, das heute wieder was verkauft wird. Die Zahnräder drehen sich wieder permanent wenn ich was einstellen will. |
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